[DISCUSSION] Arcanist Rework

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[DISCUSSION] Arcanist Rework

Post by Rhydis on Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:24 am

So Arcanist as it stands front loads alot of its power by giving the Arcanist a huge bonus to the Damage Base/Effect range of it's Arcane Weapon moves, the tradeoff for this is that Arcane Weapon Moves as they stand are incredibly weak unless the user is also an Arcanist.

The idea for this rework is to remove the power in favour of utility and put that power into the Arcane Weapon Moves, letting people who don't want to be an Arcanist use Arcane Weapon Moves with the same general "Punch" that regular Weapon Moves would have (Though slightly lower, they are still ranged special moves after all)

The my thoughts for this is:

  • Remove the damage base and effect range bonus of Arcanist when taking the class
  • Move Metamagic to be part of the base Arcanist feature
  • Implement a new replacement feature for Metamagic (Not sure what yet)
  • Improve the Arcane Weapon Moves so they aren't underpowered without Arcanist
  • Run through the Power Manipulations and modify them to work around changes made to the Arcane Weapon Moves


Please add your 2 cents here, i'm interested to see what people think on the matter
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Re: [DISCUSSION] Arcanist Rework

Post by Eizaz on Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:46 am

These changes make Jade sad.
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Re: [DISCUSSION] Arcanist Rework

Post by IRL_Gengar on Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:46 am

Maybe reworking the Arcane Weapon Training feature (which is required to even use the weapons in the first place) to do something like increase the damage base or frequency of the moves? so people can still use arcane weapons without training but you get bonus's for spending a feature
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Re: [DISCUSSION] Arcanist Rework

Post by Rhydis on Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:03 pm

IRL_Gengar wrote:Maybe reworking the Arcane Weapon Training feature (which is required to even use the weapons in the first place) to do something like increase the damage base or frequency of the moves? so people can still use arcane weapons without training but you get bonus's for spending a feature

Arcane weapon training does currently give a bonus in fairness, it allows you use the weapon moves with a type based on your elemental connection and if you have mystic senses or elemental connection normal it gives you +10 damage. I hesitate the increase the power of Arcane Weapon Training. I'd honestly rather remove it and make the Arcane Weapon Moves stronger, then making a section for Arcane Weapon rulings (Which puts the elemental type stuff there)

Also in response to Stephens "Quadratic Wizards" comment, yes the weapon moves can be used as any type, however they can only EVER be one specific type, based on the elemental connection (Or mystic senses) the user has. So while they can have a specific type of damage, it honestly doesn't add too much to the power except for a tiny bit of diversity (And also explicit downside) in a specific situation.

To take Jade as an example, they use poison type arcane weapon moves and can't use other types, so when fighting anything resistant (Or immune) to their weapon moves, they have alot of their stuff taken away. In these situations it would be better to use the relevant elementalist (Miasmic in this example), that way they would still have some of their class features that they can use, in the event that they are fighting a steel type, while with Arcanist, the mere presense of a steel type in Jades case, makes an entire class of hers useless.
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Re: [DISCUSSION] Arcanist Rework

Post by Isaac(Angus) on Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:12 pm

The problem with arcane training not that it exists but that it's a feature that unlocks arcane weapons which are lack luster without arcanist. It can still exist but do more stuff or be balanced a bit so it's an edge
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Re: [DISCUSSION] Arcanist Rework

Post by Isaac(Angus) on Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:30 pm

Ooooh Since the cool thing about arcanist is that it boosts special moves that aren't arcane weapons moves it it worth having the new feature being something like "Temporally counts special move learnt by user as arcane weapon move" so it gains the range of the weapon and stuff that would be neat :3
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Re: [DISCUSSION] Arcanist Rework

Post by Eizaz on Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:50 pm

Umm... Yeah, I should probably explain why this would make Jade sad.

Jade currently uses the increased effect range of Arcane training (and soon Arcanist) to her advantage. Jade's elemental connection is normal, not poison. That gives her increased effect range and damage on her poison weapon moves, because she converts the normal weapon moves to poison type with poison weapons. That means against a steel-type, Jade can still use all of her Arcanist features (that she does not have).

The augmentation of arcane weapon moves is what makes makes arcanist enticing and so flexible. If your problem is an arcanist having useless features in some type match-ups, then A: occupational hazard, B: Arcane training being downgraded to optional for the weapons (which I thought was already the case) means you can enable the character to always have access to normal weapon moves.

If you have arcane training (normal), you benefit from the huge boost in power of normal type arcane training. At the risk of not being able to fight ghosts. But otherwise with option B you'd have the options of a second type of attack at the cost of an edge and feature.

Option C: If it's absolutely imperative that you delete arcanists' have bad type match-ups, then you can add typed arcane weapons to the system. These will always have the corresponding type, but can't apply arcane training.

Arcanist itself potentially suffers the issue of being incredibly front loaded. The damage bonus and effect range increase are really high, but it may be well costed as a class feature. Arcanist's later features are the ones which feel a bit lacking. If Arcane Weapon moves, with Arcane Training (normal) are equal in power (or just marginally below) regular weapon moves then I believe the balance is good. Arcanist giving the arcane weapon moves a really higher ceiling than conventional weapons is perfectly fine, since getting that ceiling comes at the cost of a class and it isn't super compatible with the more commonly used combat classes anyway.

Also, yes, that is correct. Jade is scared of swords.
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Re: [DISCUSSION] Arcanist Rework

Post by Rhydis on Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:08 pm

Well put Stephen, I had forgotten that Jades current build is a ludicrous combo to gain arcane weapon damage (From normal connection/mystic senses) while still earning poison type from Ninja. (Great combo, I love it)

I feel like I could potentially change things around, giving part of the power in Arcane Training (Potentially +X effect range where X is the users occult education rank halved) then move the damage base bonuses to be later on in Arcanist, like maybe you start with +0 in Arcanist, then every 2 Arcanist features thereafter you earn +1 Damage Base.

Just weighing up my options here.

Angus I like your idea there, but it comes up with a bunch of potential ramifications if we don't read carefully Wink

Also not gonna lie, Soul Investment is good for diversity, but it really doesn't feel like a capstone at all.
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Re: [DISCUSSION] Arcanist Rework

Post by Hel on Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:16 am

My main problem is that some of the arcane moves are just copies of normal moves that became weaker and had the static effect become a percent chance.
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Re: [DISCUSSION] Arcanist Rework

Post by Rhydis on Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:27 am

Hel wrote:My main problem is that some of the arcane moves are just copies of normal moves that became weaker and had the static effect become a percent chance.

Yep, this is one of the big reasons why I want to improve arcane moves, they really are not good and balanced around taking Arcanist with them, but even then, some of the moves are exceptionally weak compared to other moves in the game. So buffing them is pretty much necessary, if I don't then do something about the boosts Arcanist gives, they would be too powerful.
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